Episode 11: Succeeding in the Insurance Defense Market Transcript

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Wesley Todd [00:07]: This is the Litigation Management podcast. I’m your host the CEO of CaseGlide, Wesley Todd. As you guys know already, the Litigation Podcast is where I interview some of the most successful people and influential people in and around the Litigation Management space. And as you know, by now, we’re not going for an update on Hadley V Baxendale or you know, the latest change of civil procedure. We’re talking about big picture, future of industries you know, talent gaps things like that. What are the challenges that are happening? And how do they impact this audience, which is adjusters and attorneys. We’ve had some unbelievable guests. If this is the first time that you’re listening, and today is no exception. Today on the LM pod, I have Matt Margolis. Matt is the Director of Legal and Risk Management at Lloyd Jones. And I’m gonna kick it to Matt in just a moment to tell you more about his background. Matt and I are going to talk about the current state of the insurance offense market, and what you need to know about that today. So thank you for joining the pod, Matt. Why don’t you tell the audience about your background? And we’re really excited to have you on.

Matt Margolis [01:16]: What an intro man that was. That was great. Yeah, thank you for having me on. Listen, it’s an absolute pleasure. So my background, I am a recovering attorney just like yourself, I think it’s the best way to put it. I work at a company called Lloyd Jones, a stellar company that is a private equity group and developer and manager of multifamily, Senior Living and hospitality. And what I do there is I’m effectively their general counsel, most of their Director of Risk Management. And I’ve really taken over a Risk Management and Litigation Management role. Prior to that, I was the vendor, I was the insurance defense attorney for a number of years. And then I also was mostly commercial construction, and some planners work. So I’ve really worn as many hats as you can in this space. And yeah, I’m happy to be here.

Wesley Todd [02:10]: Well, thank you for joining. The way we got connected was that in I don’t know how the first one came out. But I just saw, you would post these things that like everybody talks about behind the scenes, insurance defense world, you would post you would like literally just like say what everybody’s thinking whatever I talk about behind the scenes, you put it on LinkedIn, you wouldn’t just write out some long thing like some people do, you might do like a video, or some kind of quick you know, Snapchat looking thing or Instagram story on most. And these things took off, and you have you know, hundreds, and sometimes 1000 plus probably people commenting and liking and sharing these perspectives. And I just wanted to have you on. So I’m really excited to have somebody like this on because it’s so different and so unique. So for anybody that hasn’t seen Matt, on LinkedIn, you got to connect with him on LinkedIn. Let’s just get that out there. Before we get started with the interview. There’s just like a really great perspective. That’s like, it’s hive mind. It’s like everybody’s thinking this thing. You say it for everybody. And you’re not worried about who at the fence. I just love that.

Matt Margolis [03:23]: No, I appreciate it.

Wesley Todd [03:24]: I want to focus on I want to make the most of this time for this audience and get this unique perspective that you have on the insurance offense market. You’ve seen it from within, now you’re seeing it from the outside, you’re not just aware of what was going on at your firm, you’re aware of what’s been going on in the industry. And there’s a lot of pieces of that. And you know, we were talking about it before the podcast. We’re just sharing about the challenge for these firms and in particular for these attorneys, a young attorney that comes into this firm trying to carve a successful path. Matt, talk to me about maybe some of the challenges you saw and the challenges you saw from your peers to be in the insurance defense market and become successful?

Matt Margolis [04:08]: Sure, sure. So I mean, it’s the markets industry. You know, you come out of law school, and you work at one of these firms, and no one really knows what insurance defenses and it really has like a negative connotation when you say it, which really, both you and I have this background. It’s not effectively any claim, you see, but at least what like 90% of the claims absence, some sort of commercial dispute is covered by insurance. Big bet the company style cases, all of them are covered by a DNO policy or like an environmental policy or whatever it is. So I want to get that out there for anyone listening. I am a big proponent of insurance defense related work. I love the work. I love the folks that do the work. I love the adjusters and the carrier so it’s always a blast. Now, that being said, when you come into these firms, especially as a younger person, you have no idea what it is, you’re like oh, you’re gonna do. Everyone says the same buzzwords, you’re like, Oh, you’re gonna do catastrophic, personal injury, big cases that are you know, the sub working for some of the biggest companies in the world. That’s usually how you sell someone into a firm like that. And granted, you probably are. You may be doing huge, huge style cases that are covered by [inaudible] insurance. But a lot of time, you’re not, a lot of times there is a volume component to it. So maybe you have coming in, you’ve got like 10 high exposure cases, and maybe you have, and you know, just suppose it maybe a 40 mid to low level exposure cases. So going into these practices, I think the way to be successful is time management more than anything, I think it’s something they don’t tell you. Now, it’s also being cognizant, I hate to say it’s us being cognizant of politics some of these cases. And again, you have an ethical obligation all of your clients, but some of these cases are going to be given to you by maybe a firm partner or a higher partner. And you’re going to put as much effort into all these cases, but you got to be cognizant of where they’re coming from. So there’s a whole firm hierarchy that a lot of people are not even familiar with, when you come in. You come in, you’re like, hey, you’re working with the managing partner on this case. And you may be a bit overwhelmed, you don’t want to voice that. And you’re focusing on something else, and the case you have with the managing partner slips through the cracks. And I gotta say, I’ve seen that happen and I’ve had friends discuss that, and it’s not fun. It’s not fun. So as a tip for success is knowing where the cases are coming from, being cognizant and prioritizing exactly the work. And again, you prioritize all the work but let’s be practical here. You know, if you’re working with a managing partner on a case, that has a level of priority to it, then maybe a lower level case, and maybe a case you’re working with just a senior associate doesn’t. Okay, so that’s definitely one tip I gotta give. I mean, I’m sure it was, you probably have had a similar experience.

Wesley Todd [07:02]: Oh for sure, yeah. Certainly, I think it’s great advice.

Matt Margolis [07:04]: Yeah, yeah. So that’s one, I feel like I could talk about this all day, right about how to succeed in the insurance defense realm. I think the other thing is not getting burnt out. I think that’s another bit of advice. Because this is a volume based work, you know, it’s a volume based game. And I think a lot of us are you know, you always want to succeed, you always want to impress, and you always want to put up, because that’s what we’re taught in law school, you don’t say no, and you don’t say you’re tired, you don’t say you have any sort of issue. And you’ve got, like we just discussed, you got 40 cases, and 10 of them are catastrophic related claims. And you’re just moving forward, you’re not saying to anybody, Hey, I gotta tap out for a bit, you know this is a bit overwhelming. And it’s okay to tell, you know, your partner, or whoever it may be, it’s okay to tell those folks, hey, look, I’m not giving this case. And I’m not giving our client and the carrier, the due respect and attention that they deserve. I’m a bit overwhelmed. And I think a lot of people, especially younger attorneys, are so afraid to say that. So afraid to say, hey, like, this is a bit much. So you gotta say something. And if you have a firm that says to you, I don’t care that you’re overwhelmed, or there’s nothing you can do and just suck it up. And you can see your work slacking and the work product slacking and the case slacking. My other advice in that same front is get out, get out and find a better shop. Because that’s not you know, it’s not conducive to a great environment. It’s not great for the case, the client and the carrier. So that’s some other advice, I have the same thing.

Wesley Todd [08:50]: So I’m gonna treat those as teasers, Matt, because what I want to do is, I want Okay, so now you know, this is going to be really tax, you know, tactical and helpful for the attorneys and for those adjusters that love their attorneys, like all the adjusters do, and want to help them succeed. So let me back up a second. So what’s the reality going on at these firms? You know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, things might have been different, volume might have been different, rate have been different. There might not have been this overabundance of lawyers. I mean, we’ve pumped through more lawyers in the past 10 years than and this is there was some state I can’t remember exactly where it came from. I mean, we’re talking hundreds of 1000s of lawyers in Florida. I mean, there’s an over oversupply, so it’s a buyer’s market and the partners you know, if you don’t work out, there’s another 100,000 will. So there is this reality going on in the insurance defense world. That’s been extremely challenging for partners, for clients, but really the people, I think that the biggest disadvantage are the junior attorneys who have to kind of piece this whole thing together for themselves. So instead of like giving advice just yet, I want to say that because you carved a particular path that I want you to share. Instead of doing that, why don’t you just, you know, share what is going on in this market? What are these different pressures? What are these different challenges? Like, how does this system work? Why is it you know, extremely challenging, and what does a young attorney need to know? Not about the solution, but about, like the inherent, you know, concerns and problems that they’re gonna see at the firms?

Matt Margolis [10:45]: I got it. I understand what you’re saying here. So that’s a really good question. So I probably 10, 15 20 years ago, definitely 20 years ago, you didn’t have constant access to your phone to your email, the practice of the law and you know, coming in, you definitely don’t realize it, I mean, you do know you’re connected. I mean, everyone’s connected. We’re all connected on social media near perpetually, but you don’t know you’re connected to work. And the job is not a nine to five, the job is almost a 24 hour job. So when these people are coming into these firms again with let’s say 40 cases, I mean, younger attorneys don’t realize is, your phone is always on. Especially at some shops, some shops value that work life balance, but a lot of these shops where volume is really there. And the model is it’s a low billable kind of firm, but high caseload man, you’ll see emails, let’s be cognizant about it, let’s be real, you’re gonna see countless emails, phone calls, what have you at? Listen, I I’m no stranger to Saturday emails and Saturday phone calls, Sunday emails and Sunday phone calls. You know, I had a friend used to, it was a requirement used to come the office on Saturdays, almost like a sale, almost ceremoniously. Like you have to come into the office and have to do this work. And you always have to have your phone on, you always have to have email. So that’s one issue that a lot of juniors attorneys are really dealing with is, you can’t shut it off. You want to you want to enjoy your life. And listen, maybe you’re making decent cash at one of these firms. But what are you doing with it, because your phone is always ringing and your emails are always going off. And you know, you’re always on the clock. And you know, that it kind of raises another issue as well. Like, that’s one of the issues. The other issue you see is you’re working at some of the shops that are low billable, like truly low billable. And you have to like it’s just the model, you have to work like a worker, but you have to work as much hours as you physically can because there’s margins that as a younger attorney, you don’t realize exist. There’s a level of overhead associated with you. So you have to work twice as hard in a market where the billable rates are so low to make the same profit, as an attorney, maybe billing $400, $500, $600 an hour, who may be able to build less time. So all that together, leads itself to a pretty potentially, depending on the firm have pretty crappy work life balance. And you see because they see a lot of burnout, and as a junior attorney, that’s a pretty big issue. And you’re right, there’s like 1000s of attorneys, and that’s horribly, that’s the mindset of a lot of partners. They’re like, you’re replaceable. But I think the market will reach a point where it just you know, it’s a free market, it’s not going to work anymore, everyone in the market participate in the markets, good to say, I’m not going to work for a firm that requires that kind of environment, but we’re not there yet sadly, and I do have friends and I see it on social media and LinkedIn, and whatnot, where people are getting toasted by the constant on nature of the practice.

Wesley Todd [14:10]: And you know, we’re talking about it. And one of the things that I thought was really interesting that you brought up was we were just chatting before the before we started this podcast, and was that you think that like you might come into a place and the goal might be one thing or the you know, you might have you might be sold on this particular vision of one thing that this firm is one thing and your job is going to be one thing, but then the economics of that firm dictate something differently. And three, four years later, you know your career path, this is your life. Your career path has shifted. And now all of a sudden it’s a different type of firm doing different types of work or maybe it’s not, maybe it’s just you have evolved and you’re now doing something different, may or may not have been your choice may or may not have been collaborative with you want. Can you talk a little bit about what you’ve seen there?

Matt Margolis [15:13]: You know, it’s funny, you see a lot of that because of first party property. I think, at least in the state of Florida, I’m speaking to nationally, I imagine it’s different per state. But you’ve seen a lot, I’m going to just use that as an example because it’s so common, You come into these jobs, and you do maybe an OCI, or you interviewed these places and say, Look, you’re going to be doing catastrophic claims, let’s just keep using that catastrophic claims. And you show up and maybe you’ve got one or two catastrophic claims, but because the market dictates that there’s such a volume of first property work, that which there’s nothing wrong with first party property, but there might be that much defense work, because it’s such a market especially in Florida, that it’s almost like a bait and switch. Now, granted, you may enjoy the work. But that’s not what you signed up for. And I definitely see that all the time in market change. I mean, look, you know, the market crashes, and all of a sudden, the work that shows up is foreclosure. And that’s a classic 08 scenario. So sometimes it’s not the firm’s fault just the market, but other times, you’re right, there are some firms that do sell you a bag of goods that may not be right may not be the right bag of goods, or it might not be exactly what gets you to partner to at some of these firms. I’ve seen that as well, where like the work that will get you to partner to partner may not be the work you want to do. It may just be there’s just a hole, and you got to fill that hole, but I see that all the time. Absolutely all the time.

Wesley Todd [16:41]: Yeah, I think you raise a good point here at the end about getting to partner and the bigger question is, what is the scoreboard for a young attorney? And if you ask insurers, they might point to your cost, or your appeal rate or you know, and your attorney might point to your realization rate. And so all of a sudden, you’re really just being measured by the hours you work and then maybe there’s a little bit of a factor of how much the company actually pays for, but mostly, that’s out of your control. And then you mentioned, so that’s one thing. So you’re gonna be successful to your customers that way. And then there’s that you know, so you’re making money off of the work you do the hours. And if you’re really fortunate, you’re making money off of business you bring in, what is the scoreboard for a young attorney? What are the things that they’re supposed to focus on that’s supposed to lead them to becoming partner? And most importantly, what’s like, what’s wrong about the current situation? Like, what’s the challenge? So you could speak to that about like, what’s it look like? Now, for an attorney, why is that confusing?

Matt Margolis [17:54]: That’s like a question. I think every young attorney asks like, how do you get the partner? And it’s such a mysterious question for a lot of these firms. A lot of firms don’t advertise it, or they say, if you’re here for 10 years, and you hit these imaginary benchmarks, you’ll magically become partner. I think a lot of firms the path to, and we got to talk about this, we talk about the non-equity and the equity side of it, because a lot of people will be like, Oh, you’ll be partner and ‘X’ amount of years, you just put in your bills, but that’s a non-equity partner. And then non-equity partner, I’m sorry, if I’m gonna offend someone who’s listening to this on the on podcast, but a non-equity partner and the senior associate are not very different, or are very different pay might be a little different, you might be getting some more responsibilities, but it’s not. So a lot of these firms, you are told to bill your heart out and like you’ll be partner. And a lot of those firms, you bill your heart out with no business development, no book of business of your own or nothing like that. Your non-equity partner and that might be great, you got a cool title, you could flash on social media, maybe your business cards, but practically speaking, you’re really topped out at a certain point. And if you’re looking outwards at other firms, maybe you want to lateral somewhere, you’re likely going to lateral as a Senior Associate of counsel, maybe a non-equity partner somewhere else. And for career development, that’s not where you want to be. Where you want to be the end goal if that’s your real, you know, idea of like the pinnacle of law. You want to be an equity shareholder, you want to have a group of associates potentially under you, you want to have a piece of your book of business like that’s the true or that at least should be the goal. So to get there like you got to do business development really, like you to build your hours but you really got to be like. Look, at this big book of business I brought in through business development that which will lead to the problem with the firm’s, but look at this business development I did all on my own. These are not clients that previously existed at this firm. And this is generating actual income there’s a real realization of my bills. They’re not getting cut you know, to umph degree so there’s no profit behind it. So that’s practically speaking, that’s how you become a real partner is really the business development side is really bringing in something to the table. Now, here’s the problem. So the problem with this whole model at these firms is kind of twofold. One, you have a lot of firms that, I think this is just a static in the culture. Like, you have a lot of firms where people fight over origination, truly fight over origination. Oh yeah, like, that’s actually Jimmy’s my buddy. I know, Jimmy is your client. And Jimmy has been sending you work for about three years, but actually, I met Jimmy, three years and two months before you know, this whole relationship started. And although he didn’t bring me any business, it’s mine. It’s actually mine. So you don’t get the origination credit. That’s something I’ve seen. I’ve seen firms go, especially with carriers carrier relationships are you know, people will hold those to the chest. But I’ve seen that with carrier relationships to where it’s like you are you are a senior associate or an associate you brought in some business, but I’m the partner above you. And we generally don’t award associates origination credit, well, we’re just the partners, which is ridiculous. You see that too, and you see a number of ways that firms will not give associates, non-equity partners even some shareholders credit for the business they bring in. So that’s really a detriment to becoming partner. Now, the other issue is, how do I even bring in clients? How do I even engage in this development, and a lot of these firms, especially firms that work on a very big volume basis, they’re not going to tell you, they’re not going to teach you how to do business development, they may like sponsor classes are you know, maybe have talks on it, but they’re never gonna really give you the insight on true business development and how to go out there and bring in clients or even introduce you potentially to their clients, so that there’s some sort of cross pollination where you can bring in other kinds of work. They don’t want to do that, because it’s a volume business, and they need you to be worker bee. And they need you to bill as much as you can, that kind of goes back to my first point about, its a volume, you got to work, you got to make sure you bill as much as you physically can. So it’s profitable. So it’s kind of a twofold issue with the industry. The first being, who gets the origination. Second is, how do we even get to the origination? So I’ve seen that issue, a lot of junior associates are pulling out their hair, either with the second point or the first point, or some combination of both.

Wesley Todd [22:36]: I think that this is really great. And because your, look, let’s just face it, like this is a challenge facing most of the people doing most of the work in our industry. So this is important, we have to talk about it. I am sure like, like you mentioned that there are some firms that are figuring out ways to do this right, to do right by their attorneys, and maybe not whole firms, but maybe there’s particular managing attorneys. You know, I’d love to hear from those folks about what’s working, like, how are they? Because all the things you brought up to me are kind of systemic, like, they’re kind of is a conflict between two people, or a boss and a junior, and business origination, it’s not really in that boss’s best interest. Now that boss may be just a superb leader and mentor, and may still help that attorney at which I had a boss like that. But I think I was one of the few. And they may do that. It’s sort of against their own interest. But really what the only way they’ll do this, if they’re so successful, that it doesn’t really make a difference for them. How often are you going to see that? So I think this is really important, because you need to just like, hey, this is the reality for most of the people do most of the work in our industry. And if you’re doing something different, if you’re listening to podcasts, and you’re doing something different you know, tell us about it, we’d love to hear about it, because we got to figure out things that work. Because these issues that whether or not you know, maybe they can be fixed, maybe they are being fixed, but there’s an inertia towards these conflicts, just based on the financial model of the law firm. Okay, what does that lead to? That leads to a talent issue and insurance offense. Matt, I want you to talk a little bit about the decision that a young attorney and we’re going to talk about, we’re going to end this soon with, what’s the pathways you know, what’s the pathways for success? I’ve never heard of all the problems with the pathways, but just talk about what are those options that a young attorney has year two year three, and they’re looking at within their firm, within the industry, or, frankly, against the industry?

Matt Margolis [24:52]: Oh gosh, yeah, I could. So this is at least again, for everyone listening, this is my thoughts on the industry and my thoughts on the career paths directory are what at least I’ve seen, it looks like. And again, young attorneys talk, especially through social media. So this is kind of where I’m thinking, you come in as a first year, let’s say you come in, let’s keep talking in the realm of the firm that’s mostly a defense firm. So you come in, in your first year. Your first year, is to be successful, it really is learning the industry, learning how to build, if you get client contact your very first year, hopefully you do, and it could easily be your own adjuster emails. Just an email, there’s an initial report that went out. And maybe you’re not referenced anywhere, but you’re on the CC line, your copy to the email. So not blind copied, but actually copied. So when the adjuster at XYZ insurance company at least knows you exist, from there, probably around the end of year one, year two, you should be starting to make that peer out. You should be starting to have conversations with adjusters. So at that point, adjuster should be because look, I give out my work to legal vendors, I’ve got my own panel, the attorneys. I know who does the work. I know who does to do the work. I know plenty that in an associate of mine, and I prefer it. I know, associates are the ones really getting down and dirty and getting things done. So I want to have conversations with the Associate Attorney actually doing work on the file, because they’re going to know what the discovery says. They’re going to know what you know, actual case strategy at least on a micro level, they’re going to know exactly what it is, they’re going to you know, they may have a better lay of the land because they’re working 50 files right now you know, and they’re much more in the grain. So at that point, you got to be talking to adjuster. You got to be talking to clients need to be actual contact, if you’re not getting contact by year two, this is my suggestion you know, leave, plain and simple. Get out, get out because that’s I think by year two, you should be getting client contact. Your again client contact, get out of there. By year three, you should be able to be talking to adjusters, you may start having relationship with adjusters. At year three is the time where you might start seeing case referrals. And granted, there may be an origination fight there, that’s a relationship with somebody else. But you’ll at least get the lay of the land to that point. And you should at a minimum start getting files from there. Now, this is the problem with the industry. Once you get to that three to five mark, that’s like the cliff, are you going to be a non-equity partner, or are you gonna go plaintiff? Because I think traditionally, we spoke about this earlier. Traditionally, law used to be this, you go in and you put in your time and at the end of your senior associate career, you’re either given the option to buy in as equity, or they kind of shove you out, you go in house, you go to a client. You go work for clients at a general counsel, I think for the defense world, it’s a little different. In the defense world, you reach a point where you think about and you’re like, well, is this what I want to keep doing? Do I have a good relationship with my clients? Do I have a good relationship with the firm? Do am I happy, or do I want to go planning? And that’s what a lot of people do, and you’re seeing a lot of talent, leave the defense realm and go plaintiff. So at that three to five year range, that’s when you’re going to see people go plaintiff that otherwise could be tremendous defensive terms. From there, I think you’re going to you know, if you stay on and you’ve got a great environment, you’re going to have a book of business, or at least a small book of business, you start to grow that up. And that’s when you ultimately end up as a shareholder equity partner. But that’s at least my thought on the defense career directory, that’s what it looks like for me.

Wesley Todd [28:47]: I think that that was really helpful, really tactical, I completely agree that, look, there’s the substance, and then the procedure like, you need to have leverage within your firm. So whether or not you’re the originating person, if you are a key client contact by year three, and that’s pretty fair. Like, look, if you’re three years into your career, and no one cares about you outside of your firm like that you know, that’s on you. It might be a bad leadership problem. But you know, that three years is a lot a big chunk of your life to give for no recognition outside. So there’s raises some different questions, but I think that’s really good advice. And then I think your point about evaluating your options at that point is really helpful. I mean, if you do your job, and you do what Matt just said, you should be able to have a successful career with an insurance offense. And the numbers can stack up. So if you had a very large firm or they already have all the clients you know, then your path might be different, because you may not have that many new clients to add, but you may be building this great book of existing customers. You have a conflict there too, because if you took them elsewhere, that doesn’t really add value to the client. Like, in fact, that might even disrupt the client. So you realize these challenges, but for you personally, you need that leverage that you are valuable to the customer. And that you’re making money for your boss, but the client knows that you’re a big part of that. I think that was really helpful, Matt.

Matt Margolis [30:43]: I appreciate it, that’s what it looks like to me. And I think when you’re a young attorney, you’re not given the end game, or at least not to you know, the end game is to discuss and discuss law school or you know, amongst friends, even I talked to plenty of my buddies that you know, about their, what their trajectory is, and even some younger folks, and they don’t know, and it’s never really discussed. So I’m hopeful that, folks can hear this podcast and or even give me a call or an email or what have you and we can discuss what your options are. Because you know, people are not going to be completely, because it’s against our interest to be completely straight up about the industry as a whole. And that’s probably another detriment to it. I think there’s you know, as much knowledge there is out there and information, I think plenty of firms lock up certain aspects of firm politics and the dynamics of some of these firms pretty tight, and you almost black box it, and a lot it’s to the detriment of a junior associate.

Wesley Todd [31:46]: A real quick, this is why what you’re doing so important. I mean, I’m sure you’re just doing it for fun, and because you like doing it, but what you’re doing actually is really important, because like I said, a lot of people won’t talk about this stuff. And it’s not you know, me and you talking about, it’s not really going to help a whole lot, you need everybody to talk about it. Because we do need to make a lot of progress here. Because the fear is what you said, everybody goes to the plaintiff side which is happier. And that’s terrible for our industry and it’s terrible for you know, that three to five year period you just talked about because there really is no growth path there. And it’s a basically a restart. So what you’re doing is really important, because you’re getting this stuff out there, whether you like it or not, you need to address it. You need to figure out your path. Why don’t you just go ahead and talk about like, you obviously made some decisions along the way about the type of lawyer you’re going to be, the career path you want? And what was the impetus for having a voice in the industry sharing that voice, and how has that helped you?

Matt Margolis [32:50]: Yes, so I like to call it like the new non-traditional career path. So I was working at a firm, honestly, a fantastic firm. And I may have seen some things at that particular firm, and I won’t go into specifics, but I definitely saw things from all my friends. And people talk, people talk, so all my friends would talk and they’d say X, Y, and Z is an issue. And I would be taken aback by certain things I’d heard right. I’m like, Oh, my gosh, that’s crazy. Why are you putting up with it? He goes, what do you mean, why am I putting up with it? You’re not dealing with this. And it blows my mind. I’m like, oh, my gosh, that’s crazy. So I started to post on LinkedIn and social media, because LinkedIn was probably the best outlet because all the attorneys in folks were on there. And I’m terrible at Twitter. I’ll admit it. If you could follow me on Twitter, just delete me. So I would try LinkedIn. Right. I was like LinkedIn, at least people acknowledge my opinion, and for better or for worse. So I started to post on LinkedIn and say, Look, you know, memes and funny stuff, because people don’t have time to read long, thorough posts, diatribe about the issues of the industry. People want to laugh and they laugh. And you know, I mean, that’s the point of comedy. You laugh at it, and it makes you think about it, you’re like, oh, you know, ha-ha, that’s a funny meme. I think I posted something recently where it’s like, it was Uno. And the card was like, pay attorneys for their origination credit or pay attorneys for the clients that bring in or draw 25. And the next picture is a guy with like, 45 cards. And people read it and they laugh. And they’re like, oh, that’s funny. And they go, well, that brings up a good point, do I get origination, and it started a whole discussion on there you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 comments deep and ended up being viewed by maybe like 50 or 60,000 people. And it started the conversation, started a conversation, some folks from other firms actually commented and said, why don’t give out origination credits for this? Your credit what you get your value added for bringing the clients is I taught you how to bring in that client? And that sort of that discussion, which I don’t agree with that logic you know, but that’s their logic. So it’s starts these conversations. So originally kind of started out, poking fun at the industry, seeing what people will say, now at this point, I post a lot of things because I’m passionate about it. So I see a lot of people getting stepped on, or I see issues in our industry. And I just not to act like a crusader because I’m not. I think the best way to put is a meme lowered, which is the worst Gen Z millennial term ever. But just you know, I’m so riled by it, I’m so excited about and people are willing to listen and view and laugh at some of my stuff. So I thought you know, I should at least do my part, and make fun of the industry and hopefully promote some level of change. So I think people have seen some of my stuff, and they think about I saw a senior partner in a firm, fairly recently post on LinkedIn and say, Look, you got to pay your associates origination credit. And you know, it hit me right in the heart like, alright, you know, people are listening.

Wesley Todd [35:56]: A real quick, I think that’s really helpful for everybody. I want one last piece of advice for the insurance offense world, I’m assuming that you were afraid to probably post the first time, you’re probably afraid to reach out to that client the first time, probably afraid to send out that email and CC your boss the first time as opposed to them sending it are you sending it to them. So next steps for these folks like what you probably it was probably a lot less scary than you felt for taking these steps forward?

Matt Margolis [36:38]: Oh yeah, I would. I think you know, what I can actually almost pinpoint it, I think, I maybe had a conversation with an adjuster on LinkedIn. And that in itself was frightening for me because that’s a potential client. And I don’t know if that was someone’s you know, friend in the firm, I don’t know, I was burning a bridge. And I added that person on LinkedIn. And the minor heart attack that I had was completely outweighed by the fact that I just created this connection with an adjuster, a potential client, a potential friend and you know, it’s super scary when you first do it, just pull the trigger. I’m a client now of a bunch of law firms, and I’m as approachable as approachable can be, it’s okay to do it, it’s okay to engage in business development. Don’t be heavy handed, I’ll say that. Don’t be too aggressive. But you know, it’s okay to reach out. And I know, it’s scary. But once you do it the first time and you start to engage in that level of business development, it becomes easier and less scary and less stressful to do it.

Wesley Todd [37:46]: So just do it. But to Matt’s point, like do it well. Matt, what you’ve done is a master class on this because you’re not selling, and you really actually what’s even, you know, greater, better than your current role, you don’t even have a short term benefit from getting this type of audience, but that’s when it’s the most powerful. That’s why you’re getting 1000 likes, and everybody in the industry knows you are. And you know, we work in industry, I have 1000s of users that CaseGlide you know. I know the names, I’ve never seen their face, I don’t know anything about them, and you pop up and I feel like I know you really well, I know, you ever, like I know everything about you that matters. So it’s because of the quality of content, it’s because of the selflessness of the content. And because you took that risk to put your name out there and put your thoughts out there, and you probably have a lot of options now and a lot of flexibility with your career. And I just really appreciate you sharing that with this audience because we know you know, being any insurance offense firm is fun, that was the most fun I’ve ever had with all those other young attorneys trying to find our way. And we love it, but it’s you know ever, before you know, everybody’s gonna be gone. And you don’t want to be the last one there. And if you do, you want to make sure you’re getting paid handsomely for it. So I think we got to do this again. I really appreciate your perspective, and I really recommend that everybody follow you. Could you just tell people how to follow you, what the best way to follow you is?

Matt Margolis [39:24]: Yes. So, you could follow me on LinkedIn. If you just look in Matt Margolis, you’ll find me. You can follow me on TikTok for some of the funny videos, and that’s I think that’s Matt’s law is the handle. Twitter, I’m not even gonna give it just e let me wallow in the Twitter pity that I am because I just can’t do it right. But those two mediums, I think are probably the best way to get in touch with me.

Wesley Todd [39:51]: Well, I really appreciate it man. This is fantastic. Thank you for sharing this very unique and successful story with the litigation management product. And let’s do it again soon.

Matt Margolis [40:01]: Absolutely. I appreciate it, Wes.

Listen to the full podcast here.

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