Episode 7: Leadership in Claims Litigation: Building a Successful Team Transcript

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Wesley Todd [00:06]: This is the Litigation Management podcast. And I’m your host, the CEO of CaseGlide, Wesley Todd. And for those of you that are new, the Litigation Management podcast is where we’re trying to interview some of the most successful and influential people in and around the litigation management world. And as you know, from the past guests, we’re not looking for singles, we’re not looking for the latest case law, we’re not looking for the latest strategies we’re looking for, like big picture. What does the future of claims litigation look like? How at the highest level, are things going to impact you, the adjuster, the Attorney, the Claims Director, and those are the type of guests we’re bringing on. And today, I was compelled to bring on John, known as John High Five handling. And John is an Attorney and a Vice President of Shared Services at UPC Insurance, and I’m going to have John to tell you more about his background today. But I was compelled to bring on John, I went to his panel Council Summit a couple of weeks ago. And I was just so impressed with the high level of communication going on between John and his team, and all of his panel counsel. I had never seen anything like it. And I just wanted to let everybody we have John, we have, I think 5500 people that receive this and then there’s out of that group, there’s a good chunk in the hundreds per episode right off the back that listened to it, we think it’ll probably be in the 1000s. So these people may not have heard a message like that ever before I have it. I just thought it would be right to share it with all my other clients and all the other people in the industry. So we’re going to talk about leadership today. John, I’d like you to start off by sharing your story. I think it’s a really great one.

John Henley [01:59]: Sure. Thank you. Pleasure to be with you today. Really excited about it. Long story short, man. My name is John Henley. I grew up in the Panhandle, trailer park kid, and I’m a fifth career lawyer. I went from managing retail, I was rag man at a Men’s Warehouse to owning a recruiting company in Georgia was one of my best friends from high school. And then that did very, very well. And we kind of liquidated that to open up a restaurant, Pizza Place in Pensacola, Florida. And that did not do very well. It I mean, it did well, but after about three years. long story short, just didn’t work out. So had to pack up the tent, and kind of was a drifter for a little bit after that. And finally decided to go back to school. Got a job driving a chemical truck for a company called Auto- Chlor so I had to get my CEL and drive a truck for them. They’re based out of New Orleans but the plant I was with was in Mobile, Alabama. So I drove a truck during the day and went to school at night, when rolled back at Pensacola junior college and then went to University of West Florida, the Harvard of Pensacola. And then was fortunate enough to go to Stetson University here in lovely St. Pete, Florida. And when I went to law school, I got a job as a first year with a guy named Bob Oxendine. And he was a just phenomenal mentor for me as my first law boss, and just took a lot of time with me. He coached me and did a great job of grooming me, and little did I know until I got further along in my career that those opportunities are exceptionally rare. So I forever in debt to Bob for the time he took and effort expended on me. Then from Bob’s firm, I spent almost four years with him then I was with Traub Lieberman, an insurance defense firm in St. Pete had a wonderful time there. Ryan Jones, Mike Kiernan, Scott Samus, that whole group is there on our panel. They do phenomenal work. They always preach about doing it the right way, every single time, which was an exceptional opportunity for me got a great breadth of knowledge from the cases I was able to handle and the issues I was able to work on with that team. From there, I went to a short stint at a non-standard auto carrier that is no longer around. Let’s just say what they had said of the position was going to be in what it actually was just didn’t seem to jive for me. Then went to Ogden and Sullivan. I worked for Tim Sullivan, doing a lot of trucking litigation premise liability work. On the defense side, Tim was fantastic. A lot of fun to work with, had some great people there. But ultimately, as a guy who has owned multiple businesses and run several others, before I even went to law school, the drive to get back into the business space was always there. I knew I didn’t want to be a career practitioner. And when an opportunity presented itself, after I had my first child, to become the Claims Attorney at UPC, I hopped all over it, even though I really didn’t know what that was. And that was in 2018. And I started as the Claims Attorney and managing the Litigated Claims Department. And then in February of 2019, I was asked to oversee our Liability Claims Department. In January of 2020, I was asked to help oversee our commercial claims in conjunction with our phenomenal MGA partner’s AmeRisk, and in August of last year, I was promoted to Vice President of Claim Shared Services. So now, I have the pleasure of working with our Commercial Claims group, directly oversee our Litigation, Liability, Subrogation, Special Investigative Unit, and our in house Legal Team.

Wesley Todd [06:38]: That’s a great story. I also came from the restaurant industry, but I don’t think I had as many stops that you had. But like, it really, you can really tell somebody who hasn’t done those types of things, versus someone that has somebody that has like, every day is like a great day when you’re sitting behind your computer and working and you just like can’t believe it if you’ve never carried like a 40 pound buster before?

John Henley [07:04]: Yeah, you said that started her up. But man, there’s a moment and I think everybody has it, especially if you have a work history behind you before you get into whatever your career ends up being. I was on call when I was working for the chemical company. And I got a call to fix a dishwasher at a restaurant in Foley, Alabama. So I’m on call. It’s the weekend. I’m in my 20s. And it’s like, oh, so I head on over to Foley, Alabama. And I go back into the restaurant of this particular establishment back in the kitchen. And they’re like, oh, the dishwashers not working anymore. So part of Auto-Chlor’s deal, is we leased Commercial Dishwashers and laundry equipment to restaurants, hotels and whatnot, along with manufacturing, distributing chemicals. So I was trying to fix that washing machine, and I had to get on the ground and slide underneath it. And there was this huge bag of maggots that was on the ground and some just laying on the ground and this nasty floor of a nasty kitchen and a nasty restaurant and just thinking, this sucks. This is awful. And I always remember that moment in practice as a young practitioner, and today I’m ever having a bad day. I’m like, this is nothing compared to that. So it’s great to have those perspective moments. And I just will forever have that crystallized and just burned into my brain about, nope, don’t want to do this. I need opportunity.

Wesley Todd [08:44]: At the time, we didn’t care. I mean, whatever, but you look back and you’re like, this is a cakewalk compared to that. So yeah, I do think that that makes a big difference. Well, I mean, it’s a great story. I really appreciate you sharing that. That shows, I think everybody listening that there are basically limitless tracks to being the Head of Litigation at one of the top 20 property casualty insurers in the country. So if that doesn’t give you enough inspiration, then I don’t know what will? I have some specific questions that I that I thought about after the panel meeting that I wanted to run by you. Again, the audience is Attorneys and Adjusters and Claims Executives. These folks have had varying degrees of professional development. I know, I didn’t have a whole lot but I got thrown into everything. And that was the best thing for me at the time working at the law firm that I worked at both Scott and Christine, and that was the best thing I needed. But you know, day to day all I cared about was getting my cases closed. You know, I had hundreds of cases when it was all said and done with associates helping me and stuff. But I didn’t have time to become a better person, or help anybody else become a better person that was the last thing from my mind. And the reason for that was because I had a lot of pressures on me to get my job done. And what’s really hard for me to understand, John, is you have so much pressure on you. You have a lot of cases. I won’t say the number out loud, but it’s a lot of cases, you have dozens of people working for you. And there’s so many, five alarm fires every day. But somehow, everybody that you’re on your team is always supportive and coaching and always is taking the positive outlook on everything even through the pandemic. So when I see that, I’m viewing I see, okay, John has a long term perspective, he knows it’s gonna take a while to develop these people, he knows that he’s not going to try to teach a lesson every day but everything that goes wrong, but how the hell do you do that?

John Henley [10:59]: Well, part of it goes to, I’ll give you the definition of success, as my dad told it to me, and as I ascribe it too big. Its three things. Number one, are you truly happy? And that’s what it leads off with? Are you happy? Number two, are you able to provide for yourself and anyone who’s dependent upon you by your legitimate means? And Number three, do you positively contribute to your community at large, or the community that is your neighborhood and your community. And if you can do those three things, I don’t care what your title is, what your bank account looks like, you’re successful to me. That’s what I define success acts. But it starts with being happy. And if you’re not happy, man, the rest of it is just gonna, it’s just trappings of success. It’s not actual success. So I credit our employee success department, in the way that they’re able to help vet through people that come in the door. And ultimately, when I walked in the door, I had an exceptional group of phenomenal talented leaders ready to go. And it was just a matter of luck. How do I remove the barriers to their success? What is log jamming them in their daily life? Alright, how the hell did I get rid of? That was my entire goal then, it’s my entire goal now. Because if you hire exceptional people, happy exceptional people and that’s all that I asked for. I think that’s all any company should ask for? Do you have the core competency to be able to do the job? Do you have an outstanding work ethic? And do you have a phenomenal attitude, you’ve got those three things, you’re going to be successful with me, more likely, you’re going to be successful everywhere. I don’t necessarily need the best litigation adjuster that’s ever adjusted a litigated claim, I don’t need the best panel counsel that’s ever tried to case, I just need core competency to do the job. Because if you have to be able to do it, fair enough. But once you’ve passed that minimum threshold, I just need exceptional work ethic and an outstanding attitude. And once you get that, it’s easy to take what may be disparate backgrounds, and beliefs, and people and skill sets and experience levels. And you can amalgamate all of that into this phenomenal family that is happy, and driven by whatever drives them to be successful, but driving in the same direction. So yeah, I mean, it all starts with happy, finding the right people that have that work ethic, that attitude, that core competency level and then once you identify those folks, getting the hell out of their way. Let them do what they’re great at, give them the tools, give them the education, training, time and this is important. Give them the ability to make a mistake. You got to because it’s going to happen. And if you’re one of those, yelling, screaming every mistake that’s ever made. You’re going to lose people, especially today there’s opportunities out there. And you know, I wouldn’t want to be in a situation like that. I don’t know many people who do. People have to be allowed to make mistakes, and they have to be able to learn from those mistakes. Consequences are fine, but you take those as coaching opportunities, learn everything you can and like they say in football, once you throw an interception, what can I learn about why through that pick? All right, all right. Okay, I got it. Now that I’m throwing that crap out of my memory and never thinking about it again, and I’m on to the next one.

Wesley Todd [15:08]: So I have a curveball throw at you here. I would assume that for that to work that you would also have to have similar leadership that you’re reporting into, right? I mean, I feel like I have seen so much pressure get sent down, throughout the organization from the top at Claims Departments. There comes a hard one, what do you do, there’s a large share of these people. What do you do if you’re one of those adjusters or managers at one of those companies, where that’s not how your leaders taking care of you, but you without saying to quit. I mean, that’s that, but like, how could you possibly be, you know, achieved that long term growth? It is a hard one, by the way you can pass if you want.

John Henley [16:05]: Because, I mean, it truly matters to your point about top up leadership or top down leadership. You know, my boss, Scott Saint John, and I’m not just saying this, because I know, I hope that you’ll listen to it. He may not. He is exceptional, best boss I’ve ever had. I mean, he really, he gets me and I’ve had some except like I’m telling you, Bob Oxendine is my legal mentor, always will be. I before this call, I told you every May 26, I texted Bob, because that’s the date that he hired me 10, 11, whatever years ago, and I tell him, thank you for that opportunity and for everything that he did, because that was amazing. But as far as bosses go, man, Scott says John’s as good as it gets, he allows me to be me. He is a brilliant dude, who always knows the next question, that one question that, you know, you’ve asked all of them except for that one. And he thinks of it, it’s like, Oh God, don’t gotta not think about that. He has just quiet way about him. And he understands that I am a very unique individual, and the way that I like to do things, my personality is a little quirky. But he’s cool with that. He’s like, Dude, that’s fine. And he’ll guide in certain instances when he needs to, and he just lets me be me and the others. And what I would tell, adjusters who have leadership that they feel initially, is maybe antithetical to the way that they would prefer to be led that first stop, and take a moment to kind of search that feeling. Because if you’re feeling it, then it’s balanced always. One of the best ways to help stop an argument, right. Well, I feel a certain way, okay, well, no amount of reason or logic is gonna change the way that you feel necessarily. So let’s explore that. So take a moment and explore why do you feel that way? And take kind of inventory of what am I doing in my current role to be successful here? What does success look like to me short term long term? And I ask that of every single one of our staff folks, I meet with them normally. I used to do twice a year, but now it’s grown to the point where I’m only able to do it once a year. But one of the things I asked him often is, what does success look like to you? And because only if I know that, can I then remove barriers to that success? And it may not even be in our company? I sure hope it is. But maybe it’s to be the best sushi chef in the Northeast. And if that’s the case, let’s kick butt at what we’re doing now. But figure out how we can get you to where you want to be. So you have to have the internal dialogue first of what is success to me? And then when you can take stock of what am I doing well? What am I not doing well? What are my opportunity areas, your own little SWOT analysis kind of, then when you truly have that, then you can look at what your leadership is providing to you. And hopefully, be able to have an open dialogue with that leadership about areas that you would like additional coaching or resources in and it doesn’t have to be negative. Let’s be serious once you start off with you are bad, you are the worst, you don’t leave me right, you know that you’re going to turn somebody off. One of the best books I’ve ever read is, Dale Carnegie’s “How to Win Friends and Influence People”. And the chapters it’s, I say that it’s a platitudes told through anecdotes, because that’s really what it is. A lot of it’s very simplistic in nature, but when you read it, and it really resonates, it’s like wow, when I have these discussions with my leaders, I don’t you know, I don’t like to be told, you’re the worst, you suck blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, neither do they. So if there’s opportunity areas that they can do better in leading you and you don’t articulate those to them in a positive way, then shame on you because you’re in the problem.

Wesley Todd [20:06]: So if you agree with all that, which I do. The action items are, which I thought were really strong. Stop and actually take your time and think about this. If you don’t like what you’re hearing, or you don’t like the situation you’re in, and I’m just there’s so many people I’m sure that are so stressed out that need to hear this. You’re not going to do yourself any service, if you just share your opinion without really thinking about it. Ask questions, so like your opinion is much better shared do questions. I don’t think I should have 150 cases versus, what do you think the right amount of cases for an adjuster is? I can tell you as a leader that second one is going to hit me a lot harder than the first one. The first one, I’m going to say this person has a problem. The second one is going to be, I have a problem as their boss. And then the other one, just giving the benefit out on the other side. So your leader probably is getting a lot of pressure too, and you could probably team up on this issue. Right, to your point?

John Henley [21:20]: Yeah, I mean, how do you make it to where it is in their best interest in the company’s best interest? Whatever your organization is to be able, how can I align what I want with what’s in their best interest, and the company’s best interest? And when you can create those win, win scenarios, it’s magic, really is. So take that opportunity, take a moment to self-reflect? Where is the feeling coming from? Is it truly coming from frustration with your job? It could be external pressures, it may be a combination of the two, and maybe you’re conflating the issue and someone outside you need to deal with, maybe you’re in an industry you don’t want to be in, or maybe you’re an auto and you want to be in property or whatever it is, take that internal stock and internal inventory first, and then take a deep breath. How would you like to be led better? What type of leadership style best resonates with you and gets the best out of you, and be honest about that. Some folks are learners through one way some learn another, and then try to identify things that your leader finds important, what’s important to them? And if you can then take what is in your best interest and then match that up, then you’re going to gain the traction that you want.

Wesley Todd [22:48]: Yeah, I really like that. I think that’s helpful. And I’ll just, I’ll shift subjects, but I’m going to add one more thing. If you’re an adjuster in one of these heavier litigation areas, you’re probably getting paid pretty well. And so you’re in a situation where you feel trapped, because it is super stressful. And you are feeling like the weight of the world on your shoulders, you’re probably dealing with a million dollars plus, and money that you’re going to pay out, either through expense or indemnity or settlement. But you just feel trapped, because you’re probably making a lot of money, and you’d have to make a huge trade off. So make it work, be quiet, think in, put yourself in the other person’s shoes and figure this problem out, ask the right questions, figure it out, because it’s gonna be you know, you’re making a good living. I’m going to shift, but kind of stay on the same topic here. At the panel, we’re kind of, I was kind of thinking adjuster as we’re having that conversation. At the panel meeting, you talked to all the senior partners, and you said, Take care of your associates. You said, Hey, like, these are the guys actually doing. Guys and gals actually doing our work. I was once, John was once one of those associates. So that’s kind of a little bit of a different animal. So you got to talk to the senior partners. Talk to the associate, like what should they be trying to get out of their career right now? And why should they be thinking about leadership and this long term thinking that you’re so good at sharing?

John Henley [24:37]: Well, I appreciate it. I hope I’m good at sharing it. But from their perspective, if I’m talking to the associate, first and foremost, are you in a supportive environment? I was very lucky. Again, like I said, Bob Oxendine was an exceptional mentor for me and he was my first Law Boss right out of the gate. It wasn’t until much later on that I realized that there’s a lot of associates that do not get that opportunity. A lot of young lawyers and I say young, not an age thing and experience thing, once you get into young, again, I was a fifth career lawyer. So I was at the traditional high school, college Law School path. But so these green lawyers are coming in, and no one is there to mentor them. And it is called the practice of law, because there is no definitive way to do it. There’s no right answer. It is a practice, just like the practice of medicine, we always keep trying to get better, and Mother Nature keeps throwing a curveball at us. Well, in law, the six people on a bench that are in a box, that are the jury, or the person on the bench, that is a judge that has all of their inherent biases, and issues and hang outs all baked into them. And while they should be this unbiased arbiter of justice there another person too. So as you get into this environment, you’re trying to learn it. And if people don’t, if the experienced practitioners don’t take the time to develop those, that young talent, that green talent, then number one, what better yet? He reminds me of the adage, right. What happens if we train them and they leave? But what happens if we don’t and they stay? So you’re telling this person to Bill hours, they live your life on six minute increments. Okay, how do you do that? Now you’ll figure it out, how I’ll cut your pre bills, and blah, blah, blah, okay, you’re going to go to this hearing. Great. You know what do I need to do? Law school can only teach you so much, hopefully you’re able to have a job within law school, or be at a clinic within a law school that gave you some idea of what it’s like to actually practice, what it’s like to be in front of a judge, in front of a jury, in front of, in front of, in front of. But so many law firms just with, when it comes to that development, they do. It’s a pyramid scheme. So all it is it’s like, nobody mentored me, and now I’m at the top, so I’m not going to mentor anybody. But I just want you to build those hours build, build, build, build. And I bet you I could speak for most of my industry colleagues, when I say I’d rather pay a higher hourly rate and get a better work product, then get average work product, just you’re churning the hours on me. Seriously, it’s one of those things of if you’re a young lawyer, what I would tell you, if you’re a green lawyer. Number one, find a mentor, find one. And if you can’t find one of the firm you’re with, go to a different firm, because every new lawyer needs a mentor in the workspace that will be able to help show them the ropes, and keep them from hopefully making mistakes that that lawyer made. Some mistakes are inevitable, some losses you’re always going to take. But it’s an unfortunate learning construct that the legal practices engaged in where it’s like, Alright, you’re gonna learn by making the same mistakes that I made. So I’m gonna throw you into the deep end and let you make those mistakes. Why? So, toxic environment, get the hell out. If you’re in a find a mentor, and ask questions, ask questions, ask questions. So yeah, and why is leadership? And that is so important, because that creates better lawyers sooner. Give them those opportunities, and then opportunity to fail, gotta have that opportunity. And then as they get better, they will appreciate hopefully, same way I do, same way others do that mentorship, and we’ll pass it along to others. And that way, we have a more organic development of capable competent and qualified, yet still somewhat inexperienced, legal professionals in our legal landscape. And honestly, right now, we don’t have that.

Wesley Todd [29:33]: So you’re 100% right. I 100% agree with you that the number one step is to find a mentor. That’s exactly what worked for you and I, and I think I’ll just add a little element of practical advice. I think people want to have mentees, they just have kids and their own jobs and whatever else they’re trying to do. They’re not going to initiate it. But I think if you try hard enough, you totally can open that up and you can get a mentor, you probably get multiple mentors frankly. And those people are that’s like the, it’s probably the most enjoyable thing you could do is to help someone out and everybody, I think, would agree with that. It’ll be, it’s hard to break through. But if you break through, it’s gonna be very rewarding. I think the practical advice I’d give to the young lawyer is that they should initiate it, because it’s not really that person’s. Well, yes, if that person’s place, but if that that mentor has 10 associates, that’s a huge, there’s just, it’s going to be difficult, right. I mean, like to be a good mentor for all 10 of them, there’s just some logistics there that are hard, go get the mentor, go make it happen yourself. And frankly, get a few you know, get a few with a few different perspectives, get one outside of your area of practice, or at least outside of the practice of law. I mean, I think the most I have some brilliant friends that haven’t made a friend outside of the area of law. And they’re just spoiling all their potential because they just have no clue what’s actually going on in the real world. So get some business friends, so you can be of service to them. So it could be mutual. So I really like that advice. I agree, that’s probably step 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

John Henley [31:30]: I’ll tell you one thing to the larger firms out there, and kudos to Kelly Cronenberg for starting a first party property school, and they’re one of their Florida offices. And that’s huge, if you’re a larger firm, and you have the resources to be able to devote time to have like a training program for new hires and maybe not, people will new to law, but people new to a particular area of law, that could be invaluable, having people do as it to your point about other industries, when I first started with that trucking company, I had a supervisor, come on ride along with me often. And it was, hey, you get to see the job and see what it’s like and understand. Okay, this is what it is, and do it under the watchful eye of a supervisor who’s trying to help you get better at it. So, hey, law firms out there, if you have the resources, dedicate some of your talent that are exceptional mentors to being leaders in some teaching capacity for these folks. Hey, you know what, it’s on Monday, you’re gonna come to these hearings with me and watch as I go through hem. Hey, on Tuesday, we’re gonna do these depositions together, and afterwards, we’re gonna kind of debrief it and deconstruct why I did what I did, and what different strategies you could have utilized to get, hopefully, to the same point and those moments for a young practitioner are invaluable.

Wesley Todd [33:02]: Yeah. And I was just, I’m just thinking like, if you do that, then you’re gonna have that, you’re probably going to get two times the life, the lifetime on the attorney. So instead of having to get yourself in a situation where you have to train another attorney again, in two years, you’ll have that attorney for four years, and that attorney is going to be so much more valuable in years three, and four than they weren’t one and two, they could probably even help out similar one and two. So this isn’t that this is even in your best interest from an efficiency standpoint, not even just like being a better person. It’s just common business sense.

John Henley [33:43]: You do the right thing, because it’s the right thing. But then you can also do the right thing, because it is beneficial to you, to your organization. And in that respect, the cost of onboarding and training, it’s very expensive. And you’re right, but to be able to take the time upfront, and periodically throughout their career to stay involved and have that discussion of how are you doing? Where do you feel you’re doing well? Where do you feel that you’re not doing well? What are your opportunity areas? How can I help you become better in those opportunity areas? What are you aspiring to, like, what do you like? Having those discussions just on a human level are very enjoyable, because you’re going to hear some really great stories. But from a professional level, it is they are giving you the roadmap to help them be better, which will improve your organization.

Wesley Todd [34:44]: This is, I think, a really good place to start. Now, you know I wanted to be on top of being a leader leadership. One of the top leaders in the industry that I know, you’re also one of the strongest users are the metrics and you really understand that what used to work isn’t working anymore. And then I think, even rate some of the points now. So we’re gonna save that for the next one, if that’s okay?

John Henley [35:13]: No, no, that’s fine. That’s fine.

Wesley Todd [35:15]: And I’ve been in a lot of these organizations, I’ve had a lot of perspective, I’ve seen ebbs and flows. I do believe that this is as important of a message as any for the, your typical adjuster and attorney to hear the thinking, especially the adjusters, the managers, the associates, these folks just don’t get these opportunities. If you’re billing, 1600, 1800, 2000, hours a year, that’s all you’re doing, and then you’re trying to live your life. So I just couldn’t help myself. And I really appreciate your willingness to share your perspective. I know we could do it for hours. So on behalf all them, I wish I had this when I was a second year lawyer, so thank you. I feel like you know, a lot of times people may want to reach out to you, they may have a question, they may want to learn more about something. What’s the best way for someone to reach you, John?

John Henley [36:15]: Yeah, so my email at work is J Henley, that’s jhenley@upcinsurance. So jhenley@upcinsurance. I’m on LinkedIn, but don’t check it that often. So if you message me, friend me, that’s great. I’ll, I try to keep up with it. It’s just become such a solicitation ground that I just, it’s hard to really stay up with that. But if you email me, it may not be immediate, but I’ll get back to you. Your time is important you know, I always, it’s so funny. I hear people say all the time, like, you’re so busy. I know your time is important. I appreciate it. I’m like soldiers. So you know, everyone’s busy. Everyone’s time is important, because it’s the finite thing that we can’t get back. We can’t buy it, can’t trade for it. So your time is important too. So if you reach out to me, assuming our spam filter doesn’t call you out, then I will respond. And I even checked my spam folder every week to make sure it didn’t kick out something that shouldn’t have. So please feel free to reach out, if I can help in any way I want to this. I tell folks in this industry space that, when it comes to our sales departments, sure, we’re competitors, whatever. But when it comes to the claims and litigation side of our industry, we’re all in the same boat, at least we should be. And that boat is what I like to call our prime directive as a claims organization. And that is to protect, in our case, UPC and it’s Insurance. So I think every organization I would like to hope has a similar mantra of, protect the organization and the policyholders that count on us in their time of need and that is prime directive for us. So if I’m helping any way, shape or form, please feel free to reach out. I truly appreciate everybody’s time today, and yours to Wesley. This is a lot of fun. I could chat with you for hours, you the man.

Wesley Todd [38:20]: Yeah, we might just do that after the pod, but thanks for sharing that story with the Litigation Management podcast and we’ll do it again on the metrics soon, okay?

John Henley [38:28]: Perfect. Appreciate you brother, be good.

Wesley Todd [38:30]: Thanks, John. You too.

Listen to the full podcast here.

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